Just how useful is racial flying?

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David
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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby David » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:56 am

That's why I said '+5', since some traps it just entirely negates and others it's not so helpful against.

I'm not sure why an antean with a big poke stick is deadly when you can do lazy circles overhead and throw rocks at the guy until he dies, presuming this fight is outside or otherwise with a bit of room to move around in. If you're in an enclosed space, then flying doesn't matter. At no point are you worse off with the option of flying, and in a lot of points you're far ahead.

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Jynnx
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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby Jynnx » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:59 am

David wrote:That's why I said '+5', since some traps it just entirely negates and others it's not so helpful against.

I'm not sure why an antean with a big poke stick is deadly when you can do lazy circles overhead and throw rocks at the guy until he dies, presuming this fight is outside or otherwise with a bit of room to move around in. If you're in an enclosed space, then flying doesn't matter. At no point are you worse off with the option of flying, and in a lot of points you're far ahead.


Or just play a pegasii bard with a focus on Use Magic Device, and stock up on scrolls of meteor swarm.
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Tamara Bloodhoof
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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby Tamara Bloodhoof » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:14 pm

Okay, Jynxx, where in the world do you expect to have a stock of meteor swarm scrolls? At 3,825gp a pop, those things are worth more than the enemy! A fireball might work, but really, flying doesn't seem to be perfect and the fact that you must keep moving isn't a plus either. I agree that yes, it is helpful, but I don't see how everyone thinks it's this perfect cure all. The true worth of the racial ability is probably somewhere between both of our opinions, minus the scrolls ;)

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David
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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby David » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:23 pm

I apologize if I gave the impression that I think fly is the ultimate win button, but it is very strong, and quite worthy of what pegasi give up to get it. Pegasi are very competent adventurers right out of the box, and they only get better.

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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby Tamara Bloodhoof » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:26 pm

Nah, I was also being a bit obstinate, but I guess that's what I get for being a hot-head :laugh:, and I can't argue that flying is useful, it just seemed a tad bit weak comparatively

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Jynnx
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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby Jynnx » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:13 pm

Tamara Bloodhoof wrote:Okay, Jynxx, where in the world do you expect to have a stock of meteor swarm scrolls? At 3,825gp a pop, those things are worth more than the enemy! A fireball might work, but really, flying doesn't seem to be perfect and the fact that you must keep moving isn't a plus either. I agree that yes, it is helpful, but I don't see how everyone thinks it's this perfect cure all. The true worth of the racial ability is probably somewhere between both of our opinions, minus the scrolls ;)


That comment was mostly flippant, but since you've asked, I will illuminate.

It's actually not that hard. Have a wizard in the party. As long as she didn't take an archetype - BAM! Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. Now, what a lot of people don't realize is that any crafter can utilize the restrictions presented in the magic item creation rules and in the Society playguide. If our wizard friend limits the scroll to being only usable by characters with the Use Magic Device skill, we're losing 10% of that price - only 3,442.5 gp. But if our wizard friend is pretty cheap - or she just really, really likes us - she can limit it to only being usable by bards. This is an additional 30% reduction - and remember that real-world values stack and aren't added like multipliers. This means that we're now at a market value of 2409.75 gp per unit. Let's throw on the reductions from Hedge Magician and from Spark of Creation (both traits; -5% to reduce price to 2289.25 gp, and again for 2174.75 gp). If our wizard friend is a dwarf, go ahead and ask her to scribe the scrolls on metallic plates rather than the puny parchment of surface-dwelling fools; just store them in a handy haversack so they'll always be in reach! The Eldritch Smith trait then reduces by another 5%, dropping us to 2,066 gp.

So now we're looking at a cost of only 1,033 gp to craft each scroll - a much more manageable solution, especially at the levels at which this tactic becomes available to you. That's without taking into account wondrous items - I don't know if there are any other magic items that affect the cost of crafting scrolls or not. This also doesn't get into the business of scouring the hundreds of Players Companions that Paizo has printed. Assume a party of 4 adventurers who are willing to split the cost here because this is a freaking amazing tactic if you can afford it, and each member is putting up 258 gold pieces, 2 silver pieces, and 5 copper pieces per scroll.

And that, my friends, is what we call a stupidly good bargain. Is this gamey-as-hell? Sure, definitely. But it is legitimate, by the rules, even if most GM's would throw the table at you for going through the process.
Let me sleep through this time of pain,
And grant me innocent dreams.
Rouse me during the first summer rain,
When all the world's at peace, it seems.

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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby Tamara Bloodhoof » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:18 pm

I've already dropped the argument, and that tactic, while effective, would make the game un-enjoyable to anyone but munchkins. I am done, so please, drop the scrolls idea, especially since a collection of said scrolls would require a lot of time to create. I'm done, I already said the truth was between both our viewpoints, don't make ONE argument for said ability and treat it like a law. Peace.

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Steel_Prism
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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby Steel_Prism » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:03 pm

Thanks for the video that really helped work out how flying would work as its something never used before or seen used

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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby Sun Dial » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:35 am

I know this is a pretty old question to bring up, and I understand the reasoning for putting Pegasi on Clumsy Flying (even if I'm a little miffed about it). My question becomes however, why give Flutterponies average flight and Griffons Poor? I can understand wanting to make Griffons slightly better, since they don't get the plus 10 ground speed of ponies, but they still get the 1d6 bite.

The trade from pegasi and griffons is griffons get the 1d6 bonus attack in exchange for 10 ground speed, and Pegasi are a little more versatile. That's fine, I can get behind that.

Flutterponies though? They get Small Origins and Glowing and Average flight capabilities over Pegasi's Clumsy... and what's the trade out? They don't get a bonus feat and 10 less base speed. That hardly seems like +8 worth of stat bonus. Especially when Flutter ponies can get stuff like Nimble wings, which could have the crap abused out of it. Especially when they can still get Dashing Speed. (Flutterpony Fighter abuse, for flight stats = stupid good.... May need to try this. With no skill points from intelligence modifier and dex mod +3, You can set your AC at 22 minimum (with a roll of 1). Seems a little overpowered. )

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David
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Re: Just how useful is racial flying?

Postby David » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:46 am

That is, of course, another feat that they don't get a bonus of, but it is a thing. Such shenanigans are not unique to them, however. See snake style, which lets you use sense motive in exactly the same fashion, and doesn't require you be flying to use it.

They do not get Cloud Walker, which also cuts off those related feats and upgrades.

They also do not have a bipedal speed, meaning they can't go bipedal.

It's minor, but they also aren't linguists like ponies, limiting their initial language picks.


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