5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

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Strill
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:14 am

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Strill » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:23 pm

At 1d4 it's on-par with un-upgraded two-weapon fighting. At 3d4 it's on-par with Two-weapon fighting style, but worse since you can't stack extra damage from magic weapons, Hex, Hunter's Mark, or Improved Divine Strike. That's on top of the fact that Two-weapon fighting style is already the worst fighting style at levels 11+.

So overall, it's ok at level 1, but falls off into obsolescence as you level up.

Oh and it's also useless or significantly less useful for classes that already have a reliable bonus-action combat ability, which this competes with. Monks, Rogues, Clerics, and to a lesser extent Warlocks, Rangers, and Bards.

Noon Shadow
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Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:31 pm

Fair points. Once per turn automatically? That might swing it too far the other way, so maybe an increased die size instead of more dice would be better...

Strill
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:14 am

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Strill » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Ok, so if you look at the available ranged weapons, the highest damage is the Heavy Crossbow which deals 1d10, but requires loading. Next, there's the Longbow which has 1d8 and also the best range (150/600). The Javelin has 1d6, and a range of (30/120).

I think that if you want special javelins, 1d8 damage as a martial weapon is a decent place to have them. Maybe throw in some other small perk to differentiate them from the longbow.

For comparison:

1d4 = 2.5 average
1d6 = 3.5 average
1d8 = 4.5 average
1d10 = 5.5 average
1d12 = 6.5 average
2d6 = 7 average

Therefore, 1d6 + 1d4 would be equal to 6, which is halfway between a d10 and a d12.

Another thing I just realized, Javelins are not finesse weapons. You need Strength to throw them, not DEX. Perhaps you could just come up with a new weapon entirely.

Noon Shadow
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Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:22 pm

Point on the Finesse, but I'm not sure we need an entirely new weapon. If we make the feature allow Dex with Thrown weapons and just add the 1d4 lightning damage on a hit 1/turn, then you have a really solid feature in place that still won't make them an overwhelmingly powerful choice (being a more significant boost to single attack classes than those that get Extra Attack, but not useless to any).

Strill
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:14 am

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Strill » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:15 pm

Sounds good. The only exploit I can think of is that Tempest Cleric Pegasi will be able to get 10 feet of knockback from that most every turn. It's not the biggest advantage - Warlocks get knockback on Eldritch Blast multiple times per turn, for contrast, but it is a nifty combo.

Noon Shadow
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Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:29 pm

Sun Dial wrote:Even with this feat, I have no reason to fly, because I run just as fast on ground, in fact I move slower in the air because I have to move vertically!

Rereading this thread as I start in on some of the changes discussed, and I thought something was odd about this. I think I figured it out, though. The Playing on a Grid Variant rule on page 192 of the PH tells you to treat diagonals as the same distance as straight lines along the grid, which I think I got confused about being the default rule (since I almost always play on a grid). The variant rule makes flight considerably more powerful, giving you a cube instead of a sphere in which to travel. Now, I'd rather keep the Gem Ponies as the slowest subrace, so would knocking the walking speed down to 35 and the flying speed up to 45 be enough of a boost? (Chalking the walking speed difference up to "who the heck would walk if they could fly, so they aren't as used to it" or something and using that same justification for why the slow-flying Clockwork and Pony Satyr have a higher walking speed.)

Sun Dial
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:02 am

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Sun Dial » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:12 pm

Noon Shadow wrote:
Sun Dial wrote:Even with this feat, I have no reason to fly, because I run just as fast on ground, in fact I move slower in the air because I have to move vertically!

Rereading this thread as I start in on some of the changes discussed, and I thought something was odd about this. I think I figured it out, though. The Playing on a Grid Variant rule on page 192 of the PH tells you to treat diagonals as the same distance as straight lines along the grid, which I think I got confused about being the default rule (since I almost always play on a grid). The variant rule makes flight considerably more powerful, giving you a cube instead of a sphere in which to travel. Now, I'd rather keep the Gem Ponies as the slowest subrace, so would knocking the walking speed down to 35 and the flying speed up to 45 be enough of a boost? (Chalking the walking speed difference up to "who the heck would walk if they could fly, so they aren't as used to it" or something and using that same justification for why the slow-flying Clockwork and Pony Satyr have a higher walking speed.)


I think that's a definite step in the right direction in fixing that problem.

Question becomes of whether or not you do the same to Leatherwings. I'd say no, but that's because I feel like Pegasi should be the big time Fliers. I almost want to say, make Leatherwings stealth Fliers, they gain disadvantage on being heard while flying potentially? Don't know how much of a power boost that would be to them.

But yeah, 45 flying and 35 walking does feel more Pegasi esque to me.

When I have more time, I'll make a case for new/redifining feats, but been switching to the night shift, so time has been weird to me where I'm always half awake, all the time.

Noon Shadow
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:45 am

Reading the entries in the Ponyfinder Campaign Setting, Pegasi were more naturally stealthy than the Leatherwings, who were generally tougher, but they were equally talented in flight. I'd rather not depart from that too much.

Oh, how's this for the weather working: "Cloud Terrain. Creatures with a fly speed can choose to interact with vapor (clouds, mist, smoke, etc.) with their bodies as if it were a solid object at their own discretion. Typically, vapor has an AC of 8 and 5 (1d10) hit points per 5 foot cube. Magic vapor usually has an AC equal to the saving throw DC of the effect and a damage threshold equal to the level of the effect (if there is no level, use the caster's level or CR divided by three), but no additional hit points. See page 246 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for details about breaking objects."

Clear, concise rules that cover pretty much anything you could run into. The damage threshold makes it tougher but not impossible to physically remove cloud/fog spells (those above level 1, anyway), and it uses a limit similar to the Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters rule on MM86 to account for the odd case where an ability doesn't have a level. With a +2 proficiency and +3 from a stat, you hit on a 3, making it unlikely that you'll ever repeatedly fail, and pretty much anyone that flies could clear out cloud-cover before long. It also doesn't give you the ability to nuke someone's spell with your own spells, because that seems like something needing specialized training. (It also interacts with the Sky Mask control weather to let ponies know something is unusual when they can't clear it easily, as a nifty aside.)

It doesn't touch on whether you are subject to the effects of the spell, though. I think that needs to be case by case (punching an Incendiary Cloud should cause damage, but if you don't really step in the Cloudkill, are you safe?).

Sun Dial
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:02 am

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Sun Dial » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:00 pm

Noon Shadow wrote:Reading the entries in the Ponyfinder Campaign Setting, Pegasi were more naturally stealthy than the Leatherwings, who were generally tougher, but they were equally talented in flight. I'd rather not depart from that too much.

Oh, how's this for the weather working: "Cloud Terrain. Creatures with a fly speed can choose to interact with vapor (clouds, mist, smoke, etc.) with their bodies as if it were a solid object at their own discretion. Typically, vapor has an AC of 8 and 5 (1d10) hit points per 5 foot cube. Magic vapor usually has an AC equal to the saving throw DC of the effect and a damage threshold equal to the level of the effect (if there is no level, use the caster's level or CR divided by three), but no additional hit points. See page 246 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for details about breaking objects."

Clear, concise rules that cover pretty much anything you could run into. The damage threshold makes it tougher but not impossible to physically remove cloud/fog spells (those above level 1, anyway), and it uses a limit similar to the Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters rule on MM86 to account for the odd case where an ability doesn't have a level. With a +2 proficiency and +3 from a stat, you hit on a 3, making it unlikely that you'll ever repeatedly fail, and pretty much anyone that flies could clear out cloud-cover before long. It also doesn't give you the ability to nuke someone's spell with your own spells, because that seems like something needing specialized training. (It also interacts with the Sky Mask control weather to let ponies know something is unusual when they can't clear it easily, as a nifty aside.)

It doesn't touch on whether you are subject to the effects of the spell, though. I think that needs to be case by case (punching an Incendiary Cloud should cause damage, but if you don't really step in the Cloudkill, are you safe?).


I think it works as a feat.... I just have the issue of never actually wanting to take it other then for flavor reasons.

And I'm not sure what to do about Leatherwings, but I think they'll need some sort of a change? Maybe a small start on their echo-location feat chain that they started.

But! I have an idea of what to do to help create the options available in feat chains in ponyfinder available in 5E.

Class Archtypes and Spells.

For example, if we want the weather-mare/stallion you could create a Druid arch-type based around that and give them spells and abilities that naturally let them interact with clouds and fog.

Or a monk style that lets them control the forces of nature and could be more or less the "Wonderbolt route taken for Pegasi"

How about a fighter or barbarian style to help with the Earth Pony tough as nails concept and idea.

I think this is the route that we'd have to take to really give the flavor that ponyfinder has to 5E

Noon Shadow
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:46 pm

Sorry, was avoiding the forums until I saw season 5. Finally back.

Sun Dial wrote:I think it works as a feat.... I just have the issue of never actually wanting to take it other then for flavor reasons.

You mean Cloud Terrain? I meant that as one of the optional rules, not as a feat.

Sun Dial wrote:And I'm not sure what to do about Leatherwings, but I think they'll need some sort of a change? Maybe a small start on their echo-location feat chain that they started.

Hmm... Advantage on Wisdom (perception) checks based on hearing when they can't see? Ditch the whip proficiency (which was a pretty minor thing, all in all, even being a leather weapon) and they don't edge too far ahead of anyone.

Sun Dial wrote:But! I have an idea of what to do to help create the options available in feat chains in ponyfinder available in 5E.

Class Archtypes and Spells.

For example, if we want the weather-mare/stallion you could create a Druid arch-type based around that and give them spells and abilities that naturally let them interact with clouds and fog.

Or a monk style that lets them control the forces of nature and could be more or less the "Wonderbolt route taken for Pegasi"

How about a fighter or barbarian style to help with the Earth Pony tough as nails concept and idea.

I think this is the route that we'd have to take to really give the flavor that ponyfinder has to 5E


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