5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

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David
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby David » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:38 pm

Why can't you hold a shield in mouth and weapon in rack?

Sun Dial
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Sun Dial » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:54 pm

David wrote:Why can't you hold a shield in mouth and weapon in rack?


Fair point, for some reason I got it on my head that the saddle still took the mouth hand. Fluff wise, it feels super awkward though. But that's an old argument at this stage. I'll need to go back and reread the ruling on Saddle Rack, which might allow for up too three hands, which has the opposite problem.

Spell idea: Saddle Wrack - Dismounts an opponent or releases a beast of burden of all their stuff.

Noon Shadow
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:03 pm

Sun Dial wrote:Can't quote, on phone, but....


While the Saddle Rack does help, it's gonna be a full level or two before you can get it and upgrade your weapon, lvls were the weapon itself is most effective. And your right, the weapon thing does get compensated for, but the shield Does not. +2 AC is a lot in 5E, and the devs expecting you to have that when you don't is a huge hit to how much damage your gonna take.

David is right, you can rack the weapon and hold the shield already. Also, there's debate on whether draconic sorcerers or Mage armor users can benefit from a shield (it isn't explicitly allowed like barbarians are or explicitly forbidden like monks), so your DM may rule otherwise.

Sun Dial wrote:3AC is a lot better then a one time get out of jail free card. The earth pony ability saves at worst 1 Hp, at best it saves from a one hit KO... Yeah, it's better in extreme cases, but that 3 AC is going to save you a lot more damage a lot more often, combine that with the shield a pony can't get and that's 5AC the devs expect you to have, but you don't. Also, while the jumping thing is cool, it's mostly fluff in the end.

The 3 AC can be grabbed with Mage Armor, so it basically frees up a spell known. Bounded accuracy means it's not going to break you too hard if you're a little behind.

Sun Dial wrote:Okay... So I do like the raining javelins down upon your opponent. Maybe make all thrown weapons deal lightning damage rather then a useless weapon? More incentive to rain thunder down upon your opponent.

Let me play around with that when I get home, see if I can't figure out a way to work that.

Sun Dial wrote:Don't have access to a book right now, what does Thaumtauragy do?

A bunch of special effects, like booming voice or crazy eyes or weird shadow/light effects.

Sun Dial wrote:P.S. Wild magic activates every spell as long as you've used your ability to give yourself advantage on something. It can literally activate every round of combat, and give you advantage on a saving throw once per round.

"Starting when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spell casting can unleash unleash surges of untamed magic. Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, the DM can have you roll a d20. If you roll a 1, roll on the Wild Magic surge table to create a random magical effect."

"Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature."

It's DMs discretion.

Strill
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Strill » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:17 pm

Noon Shadow wrote:
Strill wrote:
Noon Shadow wrote:Thematically, it's grand. But it's definitely on the higher power end of the scale, and I'd really want to get some serious table time on something like this before calling it ready.
Hi, I was the friend who helped make that bloodline and I'm curious why you say it's on the higher power end of the scale. My impression was that it was perhaps a bit high on social/utility, but that its combat ability was very situational. For example, most of the pony racial perks are relegated to utility or out-of-combat, and the level 5 ability was intended to be more of a tactical option, and less of a direct power upgrade. If you can see how that wouldn't be the case, however, I'd like to know.

Actually, it's Awakened Ancestry at first level that does it. It heavily front-loads the class, and the additional bonuses of a subrace are much stronger than the first level bonuses given to Draconic (armor, a language, and double proficiency to Cha checks with dragons) and Wild Magic (random magic explosions and a once-a-day reroll). Without it, the first level bonuses might lag a little, but given the setting I'm not sure that's true. With it, it's far and away the optimal choice whenever available.

The 14th level one is fairly balanced compared to Draconic and Wild Magic bloodlines. Draconic is a fly speed equal to your current speed, requiring a bonus action and with similar armor restrictions (though without the vulnerability or issues with stuff on the ground), Wild Magic is some control over the random magic explosions.
The majority of Awakened Ancestry bonuses are non-combat. That's one of the major reasons I don't see it as overpowered. As far as overall strength goes, I'll compare the level 1 perk to Draconic sorcerer. According to your point system, Natural armor = 13+DEX is worth 6 points, +1 HP/level at level 1 is worth 8 points, and I won't speculate on the CHA bonus, but surely 14 points is plenty of room to fit all those bonuses in?

Sun Dial wrote:
Before getting into the specific feats, there's something I should point out on the 5E forums: Catodon's reverse engineered race/feat guide. This gentleman is also known as Karl David Brown, and he makes an excellent case for the mathematics behind the observed effects. The races and feats in the expansion were built on these numbers to keep them balanced in general play as well as in Everglow.
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with this system. It's built in a vacuum, and fails to consider the risk-reward inherent in these choices. For example, Natural Armor = 12+DEX is useless for a Paladin, who has Light armor proficiency, which provides the exact same bonus, and yet the system rates it as equivalent to a feat.

Races are seemingly built in a vacuum too. Elves get a bunch of weapon proficiencies that are useless to certain classes, but his system accounts for them independently.
It doesn't actually account for them independently. He had to relent and say that some of the Elf's other perks are worthless in order to get his system to fit, so it was ultimately an arbitrary subjective call. I could instead say that Fey Ancestry is valuable, and the weapon proficiencies are what's worthless. Or I could say that the entire premise behind his system is wrong, and some races are more powerful than others, which they absolutely are. Regardless, those proficiencies are at least arranged so as to be useful for any martial character who doesn't already have martial weapon proficiency.

Strill wrote:Spells are not created equal. You can't just pick one number to define the value of a 3rd-level spell, especially when we're considering niche utility spells. Ask yourself "What difference would this make to a character's power or utility"? "What would the consequences be if you just gave them the ability to walk on clouds? " From what I can see here, the answer is absolutely nothing. It's pure fluff. It doesn't make them any more powerful or useful or attractive to a player, it just fits the setting.

As for 3rd level spells, I imagine that's why he has five listings for various spell options of 3rd level. To answer your question, they'd have an at-will use of almost completely secure rest places any time they travel, independent of inclement weather and any ground-based threats.
You're acting as though there are no flying monsters.

Strill wrote:I think the problem here is the lack of a coherent theme. Half of this is a feat is designed to make you stronger or more resilient while flying, and half of it is designed to make you faster and more agile.
The feat overall is supposed to negate the downsides of having flight. The slow fliers with the feat are faster than regulars without the feat, while everyone gets hover, can wear any armor, and is harder to shoot down.
This is a relic of 3e design. 5e largely did away with the model of "You have penalties by default, but spending resources negates them."

Strill wrote:Right, so building Aarakocra, I come up with:

Fly Speed 30: +10.75
Fly Speed 30 -> 50: +2
+2 DEX: +4
+1 WIS: +2
Walking Speed 25: -4
Talons: +1

That comes out to 15.75, even after the -4 points from a walking speed that's redundant, and isn't actually reducing your overall speed. If you tried to keep the Pegasus within 12 points, I can certainly see why they're weaker. Brown's system obviously overrates fly speed.

You didn't account for the armor restrictions while flying (which he pegged as the inverse of the proficiency with the armors) or the proficiency with the talons. Remember, his system is reverse engineered. He works backwards from what is presented and tries to make it fit a 12 point system.
That restriction is not a balance or power restriction at all, it's a theme restriction. It says that only dex-based characters may play this race unimpeded, and only ever imposes restrictions on non-dex-based characters. It's completely flawed logic to try and fit a categorically different penalty into a universal power rating system.

It's basically the same as comparing a race with fixed ability score bonuses, to one with ability scores you can choose. The fixed ability scores favor particular archetypes, while the variable ability scores allow the race to fit any archetype. That's what the light armor restriction does - make Aarakocra favor dex-based archetypes.

This is the result of the flaws in Brown's system. He starts out with the assumption that every race is exactly equal, and extrapolates how valuable their perks are from that assumption. However, because that was a false assumption to begin with, he's forced to rate some perks as worthless, or arbitrarily negative in order to force them to fit into his model. In other words, he's found that his model fails to explain the value of many many perks, so why trust that its valuation of a particular perk is correct?

The way I'm seeing it is, his model fails to adequately describe Aarakocra, so he blames all of that inaccuracy on the Aarakocra armor restriction. So we end up with a system that rates perks according to how inaccurate the system itself is to begin with. It's a game of Scapegoat, where the last perk to be rated is defined to account for all the inaccuracies in the system, and so is given a completely arbitrary rating.

Strill wrote:This is again where your number system fails to line up with reality. Javelin proficiency is literally a useless proficiency. It benefits no one. Wizards and Sorcerers are the only classes who do not start the game with it already, and they already have better ranged options. Getting Javelin proficiency will never be a benefit to anyone.

A javelin is a melee weapon that can be used as a ranged weapon with a better damage die than the dagger, so it does have it's uses for those classes, actually. But what would you recommend in its place?
A wizard/sorcerer can use a quarterstaff, a light crossbow, or a cantrip if they want either of those things.

Noon Shadow
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:38 pm

Strill wrote:The majority of Awakened Ancestry bonuses are non-combat. That's one of the major reasons I don't see it as overpowered. As far as overall strength goes, I'll compare the level 1 perk to Draconic sorcerer. According to your point system, Natural armor = 13+DEX is worth 6 points, +1 HP/level at level 1 is worth 8 points, and I won't speculate on the CHA bonus, but surely 14 points is plenty of room to fit all those bonuses in?

The more I've thought about this through the day, the more I think you're right about it being balanced against Draconic sorcerers. Wild Magic seems to be shafted in comparison, really (though I think that about most abilities that hinge on someone else letting me use it). It's my fault for not playing with/as sorcerers often enough to see that (I completely overlooked the +1 Hp/level when I glanced over it before making that post).

Strill wrote:It doesn't actually account for them independently. He had to relent and say that some of the Elf's other perks are worthless in order to get his system to fit, so it was ultimately an arbitrary subjective call. I could instead say that Fey Ancestry is valuable, and the weapon proficiencies are what's worthless. Or I could say that the entire premise behind his system is wrong, and some races are more powerful than others, which they absolutely are. Regardless, those proficiencies are at least arranged so as to be useful for any martial character who doesn't already have martial weapon proficiency.

Fey Ancestry actually appears on the Half-Elf as well, which makes it more likely to be correct if his assumption about overall balance is correct. I don't see any of the races being substantially more powerful overall than any other. Can you point me to the ones you feel best illustrate the gap? Point on the proficiencies themselves.

Strill wrote:You're acting as though there are no flying monsters.

Not intentionally, only pointing out that there are fewer threats in the air.

Strill wrote:This is a relic of 3e design. 5e largely did away with the model of "You have penalties by default, but spending resources negates them."

A fair point, though there are still some cases (small sized martial characters and the Drow's sunlight sensitivity). Given that, I don't see it as a big sticking point.

Strill wrote:That restriction is not a balance or power restriction at all, it's a theme restriction. It says that only dex-based characters may play this race unimpeded, and only ever imposes restrictions on non-dex-based characters. It's completely flawed logic to try and fit a categorically different penalty into a universal power rating system.

<snip>

I'm not sure I agree with this, considering the Aarakocra come with a warning saying "[b]eing able to fly at high speed
starting at 1st level is exceptionally effective in certain circumstances and exceedingly dangerous in others" and warning players and DMs to be careful about allowing them. It certainly seems like they were making it a trade off, given the wording. I don't have any clear evidence about this, it just struck me differently. Coming at it from your perspective, everything you said is pretty darn reasonable.

Strill wrote:A wizard/sorcerer can use a quarterstaff, a light crossbow, or a cantrip if they want either of those things.

Agreed. Blame it on watching too much Alton Brown ("The only tool in my kitchen that serves exactly one purpose is the fire extinguisher"). I like having the versatility in a single item. ;) Sun Dial had a really good idea about switching the damage types that I'll try to gauge for replacing the javelin.

Sun Dial wrote:Fair point, for some reason I got it on my head that the saddle still took the mouth hand. Fluff wise, it feels super awkward though. But that's an old argument at this stage. I'll need to go back and reread the ruling on Saddle Rack, which might allow for up too three hands, which has the opposite problem..

It allows for specific weapons, some of which are two-handed in the default version, which can allow for up to 3 hands worth of items. But it also bumps up drawing them to an action, so if you aren't walking around with it equipped all the time, you would have to spend two rounds of combat to get both the weapon and the shield ready. Great for planned combat (ambushes, military action, etc.), not so much for random encounters. Basically the same situation as the guidance cantrip: you could use it all the time, but the hassle and oddity of doing so dissuades most.

Sun Dial
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Sun Dial » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:35 am

Flying needs an overhaul in the 5E translation. I think everyone can agree on that... what that overhaul is... well, thus all the arguments. It's been so underflavored compared to Ponyfinder that its actually really rough, and we're not sure just how valued Wizards placed it, and it for all intents and purposes, having 15 feet of flight vs 30 or 35 doesn't matter when your general speed is greater, making flying pure utility, and just taking away from the faster flyers.

Flying as it is has too many flaws that can be undone with a feat. Something 5E has tried to stay very far away from. In addition, flying feats are probably not the best way to flavor the flying creatures. Especially since most of the other ponies get the equivalent of their feat chains inside their starting build in 5E.

I think that's most of the general complaints. :moustache:

As for the raining down lightning and thunder from above? I found Lightning Arrow
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action

Its a little strong for what we want, but I think this is the general idea.

I think Thaumtauragy is a good start on the Doppleganger change. Perfect? Not quite, but a solid fall back option. It just feels more roguish then changelings actually are. What about letting them use disguise checks as an Action? Give them the feel of quickly shifting forms or body... even if technically that's not what they're doing.

Noon Shadow
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:04 pm

Sun Dial wrote:Flying needs an overhaul in the 5E translation. I think everyone can agree on that... what that overhaul is... well, thus all the arguments. It's been so underflavored compared to Ponyfinder that its actually really rough, and we're not sure just how valued Wizards placed it, and it for all intents and purposes, having 15 feet of flight vs 30 or 35 doesn't matter when your general speed is greater, making flying pure utility, and just taking away from the faster flyers.

Flying as it is has too many flaws that can be undone with a feat. Something 5E has tried to stay very far away from. In addition, flying feats are probably not the best way to flavor the flying creatures. Especially since most of the other ponies get the equivalent of their feat chains inside their starting build in 5E.

I think that's most of the general complaints. :moustache:

Looking at the feat chains for flying ponies (those actually related to flying, anyway), most of them don't translate well to 5E. Cloud Kicker and Weather Pony seem to be redundant with treating vapor as solid, being an extension of rules for breaking low-durability objects and for pushing them, respectively. Dashing Flyer increases speed and maneuverability (which really only exists now as hover/no hover), and still does that and had Strong Wings rolled into it for the armor. Day Wing doesn't give distinct benefits to flight due to hovering being an all or nothing deal. All the relevant benefits of the former feats were rolled into one.

Really, the only thing that seems to actually be missing is treating the clouds as solid. I think that's best placed in the optional rules section rather than the race stats, though I have been wrong before (in this very thread, no less :P).

Sun Dial wrote:As for the raining down lightning and thunder from above? I found Lightning Arrow
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action

Its a little strong for what we want, but I think this is the general idea.

What do you think of bonus damage following the cantrip scaling? Figure an extra 1d4 lightning damage on thrown weapons incentivizes them pretty well when it increases to 4d4 over time. Puts the throwing weapons on par damage wise with other ranged weapons at 1st level and outshines them later at the cost of lower range (which doesn't come up all that often for me anyway, ymmv). Might make darts and daggers more popular than javelins (being able to use Dex for those), but still cool.

Sun Dial wrote:I think Thaumtauragy is a good start on the Doppleganger change. Perfect? Not quite, but a solid fall back option. It just feels more roguish then changelings actually are. What about letting them use disguise checks as an Action? Give them the feel of quickly shifting forms or body... even if technically that's not what they're doing.

They can already use disguise kits as an action. Without the kit, disguising yourself is just an Intelligence check. Technically, neither has a predetermined time that it takes, but with the kit, a doppelganger is done in no time. (Ever see the movie Tommy Boy? David Spade is totally a doppelganger with a kit.)

Sun Dial
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Sun Dial » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:36 pm

What do you think of bonus damage following the cantrip scaling? Figure an extra 1d4 lightning damage on thrown weapons incentivizes them pretty well when it increases to 4d4 over time. Puts the throwing weapons on par damage wise with other ranged weapons at 1st level and outshines them later at the cost of lower range (which doesn't come up all that often for me anyway, ymmv). Might make darts and daggers more popular than javelins (being able to use Dex for those), but still cool.


That sounds not to bad. I'll actually have to check some numbers before giving my final reasoning, but Javelin's have longer range then Darts and Daggers, and higher damage, so it could work well..


They can already use disguise kits as an action. Without the kit, disguising yourself is just an Intelligence check. Technically, neither has a predetermined time that it takes, but with the kit, a doppelganger is done in no time. (Ever see the movie Tommy Boy? David Spade is totally a doppelganger with a kit.)


Ah, I misread that. Also, yeah, that's awesome. :laugh: :laugh:

One of the options possible for putting at least a little bit of weather control flavor into the ponies, (Besides the lightning damage, which I think helps fluff a lot) is to maybe make a set of "Rules of the EverGlow" section, things that ponies can do in Everglow because of the high concentration of Elemental magic and the closeness to the Elemental planes. That might allow for the more flavorful rules.

I'll redo my flight argument and bring it back from a Fluff/Pathfinder view later.

Strill
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Strill » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:49 pm

What do you think of bonus damage following the cantrip scaling? Figure an extra 1d4 lightning damage on thrown weapons incentivizes them pretty well when it increases to 4d4 over time. Puts the throwing weapons on par damage wise with other ranged weapons at 1st level and outshines them later at the cost of lower range (which doesn't come up all that often for me anyway, ymmv). Might make darts and daggers more popular than javelins (being able to use Dex for those), but still cool.
How do you reconcile that with Extra Attack? Even just 1d6+2d4 would make them the best weapons in the game. Cantrips scale the way they do because you can only cast one cantrip per turn in most situations.

If it were just (1d6 + 1d4), then Javelins would be on par with 2-handed martial weapons. That would basically be giving them a martial weapon proficiency, with a little extra since they're dealing elemental damage on part of it instead of piercing.

Noon Shadow
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Re: 5E Overhaul.... didn't have what we needed.

Postby Noon Shadow » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:13 pm

Make it a bonus action after you hit, so you get one per turn, but don't have to waste it on a miss.

You're right about the limitation on cantrips being the reason for the scaling, but it's also less damage than any cantrip save vicious mockery and doesn't have a rider. Given that you have to use your action for the attack and the bonus action for the damage, and it only works on one attack per round, but doesn't require any extra attack roll or save, it seems fairly reasonable. Thoughts?


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