Satyr Feedback

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David
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby David » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:31 pm

This implies I was going for a particular role, which I wasn't, for any race that exists. What role does a pegasus fill that couldn't be filled by a griffon or leatherwing? What's a gem pony got that a standard pony doesn't(besides missing a feat)?

Alzrius
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby Alzrius » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:46 pm

David wrote:One thing just struck me, Pony Satyrs get no favored class bonuses(outside the bog standard HP or Skill point), and some of the options for humans and ponies were pretty darn fine.


This is true, but none of those alternate favored class options are part of the race itself - they're added separately, and so aren't considered part of the "cost" of building a new race. Humans, in the Pathfinder Core Rules, don't have any special favored class bonuses either.

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David
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby David » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:52 pm

True and not. I mean, they do exist now, and do for all the other ponyfinder races(including humans and gnomes and such). Half-elf summoners are still the bee's knees entirely thanks to their FCB.

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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby Alzrius » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:58 pm

David wrote:True and not. I mean, they do exist now, and do for all the other ponyfinder races(including humans and gnomes and such). Half-elf summoners are still the bee's knees entirely thanks to their FCB.


Insofar as playing a member of that race, that's true - it's just that that's not an actual racial ability. It's right up there with feats that have a given race as a prerequisite; one of their available feat slots now has more than can be done with it, the same way that new favored class bonuses now have more options. In terms of measuring the race's innate abilities, that's outside of tabulating the total costs.

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Scottbert
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby Scottbert » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:05 pm

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs each get the Human subtype and +2 to any stat, while getting other traits of their other parent race, plus in the case of Half-Elves a unique bonus for diplomatic skills. Half-Elves also get Skill Focus, which serves as human skill bonus lite.

Satyr gets +2 to twostats of choice, better than a human, and the human feat or some pony traits.

Thinking about it this way, the special feat option is an interesting mechanic. Satyrs are different from Half-Orcs and Half-Elves because in this case, both parent races get a bonus feat. This does make it hard to design for them -- Satyrs logically should get the bonus feat since both of their parents do. But that's a powerful racial feature, and doesn't leave a lot of room for much else. Ponies have a bit more room since they have the disadvantage of being quadrupeds and don't have the flexible bonus.

Looking at it this way, my first thought would be to give satyrs the flexible bonus of a human, the feat from both races, and replace the skill with some flavorful bonus, but that seems too similar to human. Trading the feat for pony features gives us something more unique and in-between, but mandating that loses flexibility.

We could do the reverse, with more limited choice of abilities like a nonhuman, and the bonus feat of the human, but this seems too simple.

I don't know, I'll have to think about it.

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David
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby David » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:09 pm

Skill focus is a feat, and allows them to get at a lot of things easier than others could, such as eldritch heritage. It should not be scoffed at.

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David
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby David » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:00 pm

Pony satyrs struck with the nerf bat.

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Scottbert
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby Scottbert » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Edit: Oh, you updated them. That partially or completely addresses the 'pony satyrs are better humans than human' concern, but I'm still concerned that:
1. Are Satyrs that don't take Winged, Horned, or Aquatic and take a normal bonus feat instead of trading Unique Destiny away different enough from humans?
2. Not entirely sure that the option to take Winged, Horned, or Aquatic is /only/ worth a -2 to an ability score. On the other hand, Satyrs need /something/ to make up for loss of Skilled compared to humans, on the /other/ other hand (the horned satyr telekinesis hand, perhaps,) they get the benefits of the Fey type and the skill reroll too.
Maybe this doesn't really matter, though.


Note: Most of this was written on the assumption that Satyrs have to trade their bonus feat to get the racial options on page 12. This was a misread on my part.

Two things still bug me, nonetheless:
1. For a pony-traited satyr, a set -2 and two +2s of choice still seems really good.
2. For a satyr that spends the bonus feat on something else, what sets them apart from a better human?

=====BORING ANALYSIS HERE=====
=====SKIP BELOW FOR MEANINGFUL SUGGESTIONS=====

I guess I'll keep looking for ways to break it down:

Humans get:
Type Humanoid (human) 0 RP
Size Medium 0 RP
Base Speed Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers Human 0 RP
Languages Linguist 1 RP
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Flexible bonus feat 4 RP
Skilled 4 RP

Human total: 9 RP

Ponies get:
Type Fey (ponykind) 2 RP
Size Medium 0 RP
Base Speed Normal 0 RP (but see Quadruped, below)
Ability Score Modifiers Standard 0 RP
Languages Linguist 1 RP
Other Racial Traits
Quadruped 2 RP
Quadruped+ ? RP (Don't have to buy then trade Large weapon use, do get enhanced carrying capacity)
Fingerless ? RP (I have no idea how to price this -- it is obviously a penalty of some sort)
Pony Subtype 1 Racial Traits ~5 RP*
Pony Subtype 2 Racial Traits ~4 RP**

To value the subtype racial traits, let's look at some samples:
Subtype 1 Earth:
Static Bonus Feat (Endurance) 2 RP
Hardy 3 RP
Subtype 1 Pegasus:
Flight 4 RP
Cloud Walker ? RP
Subtype 1 Unicorn:
Spell-Like Abilities 5- RP (Self-only light is obviously not worth a full RP)
Arcane Focus 1 RP

Subtype 2 is normally just a bonus feat, the things it can be traded for don't seem especially powerful.
Flexible feat 4 RP

Pony total: Less than 14 RP

Okay, in Everglow, at least on the pony continent, the most common races are just a tad more powerful, since sun cats and griffons are presumably balanced against ponies. Fingerless by itself probably isn't worth a penalty of more than -4 RP. I expect this puts ponies in the 11-13 RP range, between Humans and Aasimar.

Satyrs get:
Type Fey (ponykind) 2 RP
Size Medium 0 RP
Base Speed Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers Flexible Human 8 RP (A human has to trade two 4RP features to get this)
Languages Linguist 1 RP
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Flexible bonus feat 4 RP
Skill reroll ~1 RP (a 1/day reroll on a save is worth 1 RP, this is not worth more than that)

Satyr total: 15-16 RP

They're good. Maybe they're not broken good on Everglow, but they out-human humans thanks to their bonus feat and better ability scores.
We could nerf the ability scores to Human standard, but then there's barely anything to differentiate a Satyr that doesn't take the pony subrace features from a human.
As a sidenote, if they didn't have to trade their feat away to get exclusive pony features, we'd likewise have a 'this is just a bipedal, handed pony' problem.

So, let's look at Satyrs' mechanical racial identity and concept (my design goals):
They should have some features of both humans and ponies.
They are bipedal and have hands.
They should have the option to pursue some or all options of unique pony kinds, though possibly at greater cost
They need to be unique, rather than eclipsing one parent race.

A thought I just had: You've set a precedent of pony subtypes requiring trading away Earth-Bound or Unique Destiny. Satyrs need to be able to be Earth-Bound or an equivalent pony subtype, however, while Satyrs have Brands of Destiny, so do Gem Ponies, Zebras, and Chaos Hunters. Maybe Satyrs don't need that bonus feat to sell their concept. There's precedent for pony types that trade it away, and Half-Elves and Half-Orcs don't get it either.

Type Fey (ponykind, human) 2 RP
Size Medium 0 RP
Base Speed Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers Human 0 RP (Trademark indicator of humans and half-humans)
Languages Linguist 1 RP
Pony Subtype 1 Racial Traits ~5 RP

That gets us a basic skeleton for 8 RP, but what do we add to it?

...And I only just realized that the Pony Satyr Racial Options only trade an ability score, not a feat. I'd been assuming it cost a feat because the subtypes are listed right after Unique Destiny Flexibility, but on closer reading, I don't think that's what you meant. I'm not sure getting one of those racial options for a -2 to an ability score alone is fair.

=====BORING ANALYSIS ENDS=====
=====NEW THOUGHTS BELOW=====

Some thoughts:
1. Should Satyrs be able to choose both a subtype 1 feature (Earth-Bound trades) and a subtype 2 feature (Unique Destiny trades), or is one enough (the other effectively being replaced by satyr/human features)? Maybe you can no more have a Pegasus Gem Satyr than you can have a Doppleganger Gem Pony.

2. Maybe Satyrs should be broken up into two overarching types, tending to lean more towards one heritage than the other: A) Human-leaning Satyrs are the ultimate in flexibility, with a flexible ability score, a bonus feat, and some minor pony-related or unique features, while B) Pony-leaning Satyrs are effectively ponies with hands -- they get most of the unique pony subrace features and combine it with bipedality, but don't get the full flexibility of either of their parents (limited ability score choices, bonus feat (if any) has to be spent on subrace or something pony-related)

I feel like with one or both of these suggestions, I may be onto something.

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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby Alzrius » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:48 am

David wrote:Pony satyrs struck with the nerf bat.


Giving them only a single +2 to an ability score of their choice did indeed remove the biggest offender in terms of how much their race "cost" to build. Using the system I mentioned before, this reduces them from 33 Character Points (which was just slightly over the limit for a "standard" race) to 21 CP, well within the boundary for standard races. That makes them better than humans, without being the most powerful race around.

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David
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Re: Satyr Feedback

Postby David » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:49 am

What do they get that puts them above human at this point, the low-light vision? fey type?


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