Leather Wings

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Platinius
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Platinius » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:27 pm

RAW = Rules As Written
meaning rules read and interpreted in the most literal sense possible
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Jynnx
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Jynnx » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:28 pm

Dragonflame wrote:Ok. I think I understand it now. :) So when you say something with Darkvision is dazzled by bright lights, it's just being in the dark and then getting a flashlight beam straight to the eyes. Ouch. So they would have normal sight in daylight and dim light, and then in darkness Darkvision acts like built-in night vision goggles? Sweet. :D

Btw, what's "RAW"?


Effectively, yes.

And RAW is an acronym - Rules As Written. As opposed to RAI - Rules As Intended. RAW is usually the "base," so to speak, of creating material for the game and for discussing game balance - it's what prevents spells, class features, and game mechanics from getting weird and overly-complicated, because they do only what they say they do. RAI is more of an idea or a concept than an actual thing. It comes more into play when the rules as they are written don't seem to be a good translation of what the game designers meant. For example, a magical sword that a second-level character can access with a +5 enhancement bonus might pop up as RAW - but it certainly isn't RAI, and most likely will get wiped out with errata - because second level characters shouldn't even have access to weapons with a +1 enhancement modifier.
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Celest
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Celest » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:03 am

Jynnx wrote:because second level characters shouldn't even have access to weapons with a +1 enhancement modifier


A level 2 character could get a magical item quite easily. In fact, in PFS (Pathfinder Societies) ANY character can purchase +1 versions of arms and armour, no matter their fame/spending limit.

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Jynnx
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Jynnx » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:23 am

Celest wrote:
Jynnx wrote:because second level characters shouldn't even have access to weapons with a +1 enhancement modifier


A level 2 character could get a magical item quite easily. In fact, in PFS (Pathfinder Societies) ANY character can purchase +1 versions of arms and armour, no matter their fame/spending limit.


Then that is a special rule of PFS that completely ignores the Wealth-By-Level chart that the game is balanced around.

A second level character's starting gold is 1,000 gp. The magical enhancement ALONE of a +1 weapon is 2,000 gp. A second level character physically cannot buy a +1 weapon. The enhancement bonus alone would require 2,000 gp. And that isn't even including the 300 gp cost that IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE MAGIC COST to make the weapon masterwork, and the actual cost of the weapon itself. Even a +1 suit of armor or a +1 shield is out of the character's grasp. The +1 enhancement bonus to such an item is 1,000 gp alone. Again, that doesn't include the masterwork cost and the cost of the base item.

Sure, there are WONDROUS ITEMS you might be able to afford at 2nd level, but they are NOT equivalent to the combat-affecting power of a +1 weapon, suit of armor, or shield.

EDIT: In case anyone wants to know where I'm getting this information, page 399 of the Core Rulebook displays the Wealth-By-Level chart.
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Selerik
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Selerik » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:02 pm

I can't really say I agree with you on the game being balanced around the Wealth-By-Level chart. I have yet to go through a series of adventure paths and end up with approximately the same gold as that chart would provide. I see that chart instead as what you might be expected to have, on average, if you sold all of the loot you found and purchased - amongst other things - expendables with each level which were then used, and gear which became obsolete. In short, it has a virtual money sink factored in that many players can successfully avoid or minimize, particularly at low levels.

Of course, this is just opinion based on personal observation. I am only sharing it to show that differing experiences and perceptions exist even on things as simple as the Wealth-by-Level chart.

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David
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby David » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:05 pm

The adventure path I'm running gave out a +1 weapon fairly early in. Does everyone in the party have a +1 weapon, no, but it exists. The WBL chart is a suggestion, not an iron clad rule.

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Rannil
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Rannil » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:11 pm

Jynnx wrote:A second level character physically cannot buy a +1 weapon.

I do believe they can psychically buy a weapon, depending on how physically one classifies a DnD game. :P
(Sorry, I just interjected for that bad joke...)

Regardless, wealth by level is a guide line for making characters, and probably a good insight how the developer envisioned gold by level, but n the end it really depends on the DM. Some DM's are stingy as hell and barely award the party a couple of copper pieces (like me!) and other DM shower the group with money (like PFS). In the game I currently dm a couple of character wanted to change class, and felt the 10,500 gp they got at level five was way too much compared to the rest of the party. In society you get about 2-3k when you reach level 2 but they also expect to use much of that money on consumables.

DM > RAW

But I feel I just derailed a derailed topic, errrm, don't mind me.


Edit: Also I got ninjad by two developers! but ssst.
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Jynnx
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Jynnx » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:52 pm

Selerik wrote:I can't really say I agree with you on the game being balanced around the Wealth-By-Level chart. I have yet to go through a series of adventure paths and end up with approximately the same gold as that chart would provide. I see that chart instead as what you might be expected to have, on average, if you sold all of the loot you found and purchased - amongst other things - expendables with each level which were then used, and gear which became obsolete. In short, it has a virtual money sink factored in that many players can successfully avoid or minimize, particularly at low levels.

Of course, this is just opinion based on personal observation. I am only sharing it to show that differing experiences and perceptions exist even on things as simple as the Wealth-by-Level chart.


Which is all a valid way of running your own game. I've handed out permanent magical buffs to player characters of all levels who were dragging behind due to poor rolling luck or character builds that proved to be less optimal than anticipated. But let's be honest and call that for what it is - a GM overwriting the system based on what he or she perceives as being necessary, and let's not just go out and imply that it was either the intent of the system's design or something that is doable in a general fashion. Just because you and I are willing to bend them rules, doesn't mean every GM is. That's why the RAW is such an important concept - without it, there's no common framework to even discuss the rules, let alone how to game them.

At any rate, it is my personal opinion that treating the WBL charts as a "guideline" is a fatal mistake if you plan to take your players higher than, say, 12th level. Which, not every GM does, and that's entirely a choice between themselves and their players. But the entire challenge rating system is designed around the assumption that player characters will have X amount of gold pieces worth of magical gear for their level. Going over this amount will make encounters easier to deal with, and shortchanging your PC's will make them harder. I'm not saying that this is inherently bad or wrong, but that is how the game is designed.

David wrote:The adventure path I'm running gave out a +1 weapon fairly early in. Does everyone in the party have a +1 weapon, no, but it exists. The WBL chart is a suggestion, not an iron clad rule.


Was this weapon dropped in on top of the rest of the treasure that was doled out to e PC's, or was the rest of their haul smaller or populated by some cheaper items to compensate for its cost?

Rannil wrote:
Jynnx wrote:A second level character physically cannot buy a +1 weapon.

I do believe they can psychically buy a weapon, depending on how physically one classifies a DnD game. :P
(Sorry, I just interjected for that bad joke...)

Regardless, wealth by level is a guide line for making characters, and probably a good insight how the developer envisioned gold by level, but n the end it really depends on the DM. Some DM's are stingy as hell and barely award the party a couple of copper pieces (like me!) and other DM shower the group with money (like PFS). In the game I currently dm a couple of character wanted to change class, and felt the 10,500 gp they got at level five was way too much compared to the rest of the party. In society you get about 2-3k when you reach level 2 but they also expect to use much of that money on consumables.

DM > RAW

But I feel I just derailed a derailed topic, errrm, don't mind me.


Edit: Also I got ninjad by two developers! but ssst.


Again, we aren't talking about Society rules. PFS does not follow the standard rules of Pathfinder. That's why it comes with its own nearly 50 page manual. Sure, there's a 2-page "Quickstart Guide." That doesn't actually tell you what you are and are not allowed to do and use, as opposed to just having access to published Pathfinder material as a general assumption.

And at the end of the day, Rule 0 has limited mileage. I bend and game the system a lot - as both a player and a GM - when the story would be better told for it. But the rules are more than simple "here's how you might do this." They are not the structure of a game, but they are its framework. It's what provides a common understanding not only between each player, but between players and their GM's, and even between separate groups. ONce you start getting excessive with rule 0, you might be better served finding a gaming system that is better suited to what kind of game you actually want to play. And that applies to any RPG, I'm not just talking about Pathfinder - RIFTS, BESM, the Dresden Chronicles, Vampires the Masquerade, you name it.
Last edited by Jynnx on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let me sleep through this time of pain,
And grant me innocent dreams.
Rouse me during the first summer rain,
When all the world's at peace, it seems.

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David
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby David » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:55 pm

That's pretty hard to say. They were wandering the dungeon, beating up bad guys, taking their stuff, and lo and behold, a statue, with a magic weapon in it. YOINK! There are also instances where the bad guy will be wearing/wielding something rather expensive the PCs can end up with.

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Jynnx
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Re: Leather Wings

Postby Jynnx » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:00 pm

David wrote:That's pretty hard to say. They were wandering the dungeon, beating up bad guys, taking their stuff, and lo and behold, a statue, with a magic weapon in it. YOINK! There are also instances where the bad guy will be wearing/wielding something rather expensive the PCs can end up with.


I'd be pretty interested in checking the gp values, if you can tell me which adventure it was a part of. From personal experience, I've never seen an official adventure or AP that wasn't run off the average of the WBL - even if they get some good gear early on, it eats into their progression for a bit until they match back up. I've seen some 3rd PP products that go in different directions with it, certainly.
Let me sleep through this time of pain,
And grant me innocent dreams.
Rouse me during the first summer rain,
When all the world's at peace, it seems.

* * *

Watch Jynnxed TV on YouTube!


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