Playtesting Feedback: Rules

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David
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby David » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:26 pm

Not so. Wear a spiked horse shoe and slot a weapon in your rack and you're ready for two-weapon fighting no problem.

Or just wear two spiked horse shoes for even easier fun times.

Though, yes, ponies are restricted in weapon choices. It's a heavy part of their kooky race, but there isn't a style they can't pull off besides ranged(Slings, bows, and firearms all require outside aid to use properly).

Though the gunslingers do get that archetype that makes things work nicely, and clockwork get a rather nice feat to enable it outside the archetype.

Seraphem
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Seraphem » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:21 pm

ah, so horseshoes count as regular weapons? Alright, just kind of thought you'd need the whole natural attack feat to use your hooves as weapons. With the horseshoes just adding bonuses to the attacks.

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David
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby David » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:44 pm

Spiked horseshoes work just like spiked gauntlets. Just like a human, they are a weapon, and don't provoke attacks using them. Not the largest weapon die around, admittedly, but they surely get the job done.

Necrose
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Necrose » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:29 pm

David wrote:Spiked horseshoes work just like spiked gauntlets. Just like a human, they are a weapon, and don't provoke attacks using them. Not the largest weapon die around, admittedly, but they surely get the job done.

Especially considering the fact that Fighters get a wide variety of stacking options for adding to their attack and damage rolls. Their STR modifier alone is usually higher than their BAB (until their BAB reaches 5, anyway, after that, they start getting more attacks and their BAB outstrips their STR modifier quite quickly) and average base weapon damage rolls, while Weapon Training adds to their ability to hit and deal damage with certain groups of weapons, and Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization training just adds to their effectiveness with a weapon, especially if it's one from a group of weapons they took with Weapon Training, and then you have weapon enhancement bonuses adding still more to their attack and damage rolls. So yeah, a spiked horseshoe may not do much damage on it's own, but it's plenty effective on a Fighter pony focusing on using spiked horseshoes.

Protip based on all that: If you're going to be a Fighter pony using spiked horseshoes, keep your STR modifier as high as you can, take the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats for spiked horseshoes at your earliest opportunity for each feat, buy better enhancement bonuses for them as you can afford them, and take Close weapons as your first Weapon Training group as that's what spiked horseshoes fall under and each weapon group after the first a Fighter gets increases the bonus to attack and damage rolls of each previous group they had by 1, until their first group gets +4, their second gets +3, their third gets +2, and the last before Weapon Mastery gets +1. With all of that, even a 1 on the damage roll would hurt quite a bit. Let me throw out some numbers to prove it:

Say the Fighter in question has 18 STR (+4 modifier), has +5 spiked horseshoes, Weapon Focus and Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization (spiked horseshoes), and took Close weapons for their first Weapon Training group (this is all assuming a vanilla Fighter, by the way), and has BAB sufficient to allow 4 attacks per turn. Even on a damage roll of 1, that's still 1 + 4 STR + 4 total from Weapon Specialization + 5 enhancement + 4 Weapon Training = 18 damage. Even if they were unlucky enough to roll 1 for each of their attacks, that's still 18 x 4 = 72 damage. And that's not even considering the possibility of Cleave and Great Cleave and having DEX enough to build a two weapon Fighter with the Two Weapon Fighting feats. In that case, they'd be able to follow up each successful attack with another and get 4 attacks per main hoof and 3 per off-hoof, meaning 18 x 7 = 126 damage minimum even before Cleave and Great Cleave allowed even more damage to be piled on. Considering not every attack will result in damage rolls of 1, the projected damage just increases to equally unlikely maximum damage using the same formulae, but yeah, spiked horseshoes work for a pony the same as a longsword would a creature capable of wielding them in hands. Only difference is slightly more or less damage based on the weapons themselves, but when you're capable of taking nearly any enemy down regardless of what melee weapon you use, does it really matter how much damage the weapon alone does? I don't think so.
Last edited by Necrose on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ponyban
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Ponyban » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:04 pm

Finishing off the pony feats.

p16, Focused Horn Magic - This should also apply to self-only spells, which generally offer no save instead of a (harmless) save because there are even fewer situations in which you'd want to save against them. This actually tripped Paizo up recently with Spell Sponge.
p16, Gemstone Finish - Taking this very many times has rapidly diminishing utility, so I don't really see the need for the weird requirement where you can only take it up to three times and only at level 20 and only if you spend 3 other feats on it and have the ability to take two generic feats at level 20.
p16/17, Gunnery Squad - Even for a teamwork feat, this one is pretty useless. Also, firearm reloading times in Pathfinder step down from full-round action -> standard action -> move action -> free action; this is why rapid reloading a 1H early firearm with alchemical paper cartridges is a free action, as is rapid reloading a 2H early firearm with alchemical paper cartridges while being a Musket Master. I guess it technically might help poor handless ponies use guns, but I'd rather just mockingly laugh much as I would at the concept of a pony archer. >.>
p17, Hopeful Heart - What in the world do you intend the saving throw type and DC to be if there's no saving throw for the effect? Probably a Will save, and spell DCs go by a formula (so you could say "against the normal DC for a spell of that level" or whatnot), but it should probably explicitly address monster abilities and other non-spell sources.
p17, Iron Jaw - Honestly, except for the +1 to hit, I'd have expected Strong Jaw to already cover the "and actually get the benefits aside from a larger damage die" part of wielding a two-handed weapon. Humanoids don't have to sink both of their level 1 feats into actually being able to use a greatsword, I mean.
p17, Kara Kissed - This has a few hilarious mechanical implications because it can be taken by humanoids and allows you to qualify for things as if you were a doppelganger pony.
p17, Lustrous Coat - Much like Gemstone Finish, taking this many times would generally just waste your feats, so I don't see the need for only being able to take it at certain levels. I'd recommend just making this one a non-stacking thing, and letting people take Gemstone Finish as many times as they wanted if they have Lustrous Coat.
p18, Master Horn Magic - The special text is unnecessary, as that's a default part of the Hero Point system as presented in the Advanced Player's Guide. ("Recall: You can spend a hero point to recall a spell you have already cast or to gain another use of a special ability that is otherwise limited. This should only be used on spells and abilities possessed by your character that recharge on a daily basis.")
p18, Metal Vitality - Rolling 14d100 if I take 14 Str damage is not something I consider terribly entertaining in any situation in which I don't have a dice-rolling program on hand. I would recommend revising this mechanic - perhaps just replacing it with a single feat that halves ability damage taken, to a minimum of 1?
p18, Natural Lance - Is this not requiring the user to be a pony intentional? Because it's pretty hilarious for minotaurs and all manner of other beasts too.
p18, Night Wing - As written (and my suggestion from earlier included, unfortunately), Leather wings are suffering from the drawback to Minesight, not "light sensitivity" explicitly, so the alternate effect of Night Wing does not do what it should. Perhaps "are no longer dazzled in daylight or in bright light"? Or just explicitly giving Leather wings darkvision 90 feet and light sensitivity as separate things instead of minesight.
p18, Passive Recall - This does nothing and should be deleted per the general magic rules, namely "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."
p18, Pious Brand - Surely this should require having a Brand of Destiny, rather than being a pony, exactly as Embraced Destiny does?
p18, Piston Jump - This feat kind of sucks - vertical jumps are really hard even with an up to +20 bonus (I mean, that's all of 5 more feet on your jump, at level 20...) and an extra +1/-1 on charges is kind of mediocre as a bonus.
p19, Practiced Horn Magic - Much like Advanced Horn Magic, this is not a metamagic feat in any sane way.
p19, Precise Motions - This should probably count as Skill Focus (Disable Device) much as Embraced Destiny can.
p19, Return to the Sea - Amphibious is not a subtype, so this should grant the aquatic subtype and amphibious special quality.
p20, Strike from the Heart - Is it correct that this affects any chaotic target, not just chaotic outsiders, when the other Chaos Hunter abilities only affect chaotic outsiders? I did criticize Chaos Hunters for being somewhat limited in application, but one feat diverging from all the other abilities is a bit strange.
p20, Strong Jaw - This should really have its prerequisites be "Fingerless racial trait." rather than "Pony", so that the other quadrupedal races (other than the cats, I guess) can take advantage of it. Likewise, a lot of the explicit reference to ponies should instead say "fingerless creatures" or whatnot.
p20, Strong Wings - My recommendation from earlier about Adamant Wings sucking is that this feat should be all that is necessary to fly wearing non-light armor.
p20, Weather Pony - I didn't really like the writing for this ability, so I tried rewriting it, but I think I ended up making it stronger by making it much easier to use: "You may, when moving, move a single cloud, fog, or other gaseous effect within your reach in the same direction and for the same distance as you moved."

Seraphem
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Seraphem » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:32 pm

Okay so, just to see how things work. Making a pony version of the Magus I'm using in my current campaign, and few things.

Practiced Horn Magic. I LOVE this feat, especially the using INT instead of STR for the attacks. Almost custom made for a magus.

Natural Magus Archetype bonuses. Inner Reserves. It should probably stipulate that doing so is a Swift Action. To keep it in line with Spell Recall, and other archetype bonuses that let you sacrifice a spell for Arcane Pool Points.

Unicorn Stat bonuses. Would prefer the -2 to be in STR then Dex. Either one works logically for unicorns, but, given most unicorns are going to be made casters, they would need DEX more the STR, for AC help, and ranged spells that require an attack role. It does make sense, and could work either way, just, preference here.

Focused Horn Magic: Should be obvious, but might want to specify that this stacks with the bonus from Spell Focus.

Spell: Curiosity's Lightning Wall. Should be usable by Magi as well. Given they can use the other 'Wall" spells.

Seraphem
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Seraphem » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:47 pm

The rules for Fingerless. That is, going to be awkward looking and rather odd having three separate rings around a pony's forelegs. Rings, Wrist items, and Gloves. Not to mention, rings and wrist items stretching, okay. But a set of gloves turning into a bracelet of some kind?

Wouldn't it make more sense, for Boot/Feet items to be on the hind hooves. And Hand items to act as covers on the forehooves?

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Ponyban
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Ponyban » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:15 pm


Seraphem
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Seraphem » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:28 pm

Still odd. I could see the boots shaping themselves. But, doubling? 2 boots becoming 4? Would just make more sense to me due to, well coming in pairs.

Second question. Given the Advanced Horn Magic acts just like two pairs of hands, and lets you use any other combination of two handed things. Shouldn't it also allow a pony to use a bow?

Next, Still Horn Magic: Wouldn't it be simpler to simply say "May cast spells of your selected school as if hey were affected by the Still Spell feat, without increasing the spell level"?

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Natron77
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Re: Playtesting Feedback: Rules

Postby Natron77 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:44 pm

While not technically incorrect, these things feel off to me:

Weights (Pg 43-44):
Earth-bound pony: While I realize it is likely based on real pony weight, 500+ pounds seems high enough to cause massive issues for players. Floorboards, stairs, ropes, etc can't always handle weight like that. A fully loaded Human in plate mail would weigh less than a naked pony.
Pegasi: 360+ pounds feels impossible for a creature that can fly via non-supernatural flight. The largest eagle to have lived (Haast's Eagle with a wingspan of 10 feet), weighed less than one tenth of that. This is also true for the other winged pony species, though Flutterpony to less of an extent.
Purrsian: Again, for a flying creature, 500 pounds is absurd. Additionally, even large cats are not that heavy, with a jaguar of similar size to a Purrsian only hitting 220 or so pounds. Even a full-grown male lion doesn't typically hit 500 lbs.

Flight maneuverability (pg 8, 11, 24, 26):
Flutterponies have maneuverability one step over Gryphons (the original flyers in the lore) and TWO steps over Pegasi, even though Flutterponies "admire Pegasi air-bourne agility."
It feels like Pegasi should start higher (perhaps even at Average), and Flutterponies lower at Poor or Clumsy.

Flutterpony relations (pg 24): It is pretty hard to believe that flutterponies, despite having entirely different origins, can breed with pony-kind.


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